spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight

This remarkable increase in power and speed was taken even further by the late- and post-war Griffon-engined versions, in which the final version of the Spitfire, a carrier-based version named Seafire F.Mk 47 mounted a 1752 kW Rolls-Royce Griffon 88 driving a contra-rotating prop, propelling the aircraft to a top-speed of almost 730 km/h! Finnish Aces were arguably best of the lot. These were excellent for speed and turning performance, but bad for firepower. I'd say in 1942 - 1943, the Japanese had better pilots in their theater than the Spitfire pilots. International postage through eBay global shipping programme only. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Airfix 1:72 Scale Plastic Model Plane Messerschmitt BF109 G-6 A02029. The RAF claimed to have shot down seven hundred and eleven German fighters but in reality, the two German fighter groups lost only a hundred and three fighters. Beim Spitfire scheune Test konnte der Sieger in so gut wie allen Faktoren abräumen. The Spitfire’s complex design, coupled with Supermarine’s utter lack of experience with modern production line techniques made Spitfire production problematic. The Bf 109 wasn’t very different. Italian pilot Fausto In a dogfight? What were RAF Spitfire LOSSES, as opposed to Luftwaffe CLAIMS? This is a question that often comes up in discussions on airpower in World War II: how did the two iconic fighters of the War—The British Supermarine Spitfire and the German Messerschmitt Bf 109—compare? The solution arrived in the form of Seafury after the war. Keep it up. It was also asserted that this was an interim requirement. Inaccurate: JG2 and JG26, the two Jagdgeschwaders stationed in Northern France in 1941 shot down RAF Spitfires in a ratio of 4:1. ( Log Out /  As the wing loading increased, so did the demands on brute muscle power to actuate the controls. The lack of range proved to be a major constraint in the second instance. In the final analysis, it is difficult to declare an overall victor without going into the details of each variant. The problem was I wouldn't like to be in a dogfight near Berlin, because I could never get home to Britain in a Spitfire!" Capt. Post-war testing by the RAF revealed that under certain conditions, the force that pilots could exert on the Bf 109’s control column was only 40% of what they could apply in the Spitfire. Dogfight Spitfire vs Mustang with wingcam and crash. Forgotten Few - A WW2 Dogfight Animation Spitfire vs ME-109 - Duration: 7:00. Those feeling less belligerent may enjoy A pilot’s farewell to the Airbus A340. Both machines where primarily designed with aerodynamic performance in mind, with armament being a secondary consideration. I immediately engaged my opponent in an old-fashioned dogfight scissors. Yet another example would be automatic leading-edge slats that prevented the Bf 109 from going into a stall at low speeds or in high-G turns. See more ideas about Messerschmitt, Wwii aircraft, World war ii. Although the plane was outdated as a fighter by this time, the Spanish Air Force decided that an improved version could be useful in counter-insurgency operations in their North African colonies. The Bf 109C featured a redesigned wing to accommodate two 7.92 mm machine guns, with ammunition boxes stored in the fuselage. By the end of the war, there were many well trained, experienced Allied fighter pilots shooting down young Germans pilots with glider training and little fuel or ammo to defend themselves. http://www.thefullwiki.org/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin_powered_variants). An interesting point is that by the time the F.24 was delivered in 1948, the F-86 Sabre was already flying. http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~gmturner/aircraft/spitfire_xii/spitfire_xii.htm, http://thegreatcanadianmodelbuildersweb … 9-k-4.html. For their homebuilt HA-1109 they therefore used French-made Hispano-Suiza 12Z, but soon a need for more power (and less torque) was evident. A new engine had to be found if production was to continue. http://www.supercub.org/forum/archive/i … 23107.html, G-14 had enlarged rudder pedals and unbalanced elevators for better dive pulkllout. The larger, structurally stronger Spitfire IX suffered no such problems. The Hush-Kit Book of Warplanes is a beautifully designed, highly visual, collection of the best articles from the fascinating world of military aviation –hand-picked from the highly acclaimed Hush-kit online magazine (and mixed with a heavy punch of new exclusive material). They therefore made use of thin, tapering wings. The engine also utilised fuel-injection technology, which allowed the aircraft to pitch forward into a dive; the Merlin’s carburettor would stall the engine if this were attempted in a Spitfire. Constable and Toliver, 1977. The requirement for increased firepower led to persistent teething troubles with the armament of both aircraft well into their service lives. Two quotes illustrate this advantage rather well: “When it comes to fighter vs. fighter and the struggle for the altitude gauge, we must expect for the time being to be at a disadvantage as compared with the improved Me-109 [this is the Bf 109F, being compared to the Spitfire V] we are now meeting”. Also G-10 had electronic ignition like P-51 so one could re-start the motor in mid air.. “I also thought the Bf 109F was slightly superior to the Spitfire V”. The Spitfire Mk I that went to war in 1939 featured a Merlin II, giving it 775 kW of power for a top speed of 580 km/h. The internet has many different aviation related pages, I am sure you will find a suitable one if you look around. “I preferred the 109F because it flew well at any altitude, was fast as most . Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Dogfight: The Supermarine Spitfire and the Messerschmitt Bf109 at Amazon.com. Seems like it came down to several things. On the minus side, the 109 was a real handful to land. If the Mk.IX or some other Merlin-powered one would have been objectively ‘better’, don’t you think RAF would have stuck to them? IXO/ALTAYA/ATLAS Dogfight Set Supermarine Spitfire Mk I vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109-E Die-Cast 1:72 the Spitfire IXB was supreme, and undoubtedly the best mark of Spitfire produced, despite later and more powerful versions. 21st Century Toys 1:144 Dogfight #599 ~ Spitfire MK VIII/IX VS Messerschmitt . Attrition of quality pilots turned the tide in the air as much as any evolution of fighter design. However, this relevance on a mere two machine-guns was to change. And now for some out-of-schedule aviation geekiness: Yesterday I encoutnered an off-hand comment about whether the Spitfire or the Messerschmitt (understood to be the Bf 109) was the superior fighter. There was yet another chapter in the story of the Bf 109. ( Log Out /  XIV for the first time Johnnie Johnson said that it was a nice and fast aeroplane”). On the flip side, the Bf 109’s small size made the cockpit very cramped. The resulting aircraft, dubbed the Avia S-199, was probably the worst version of the whole Bf 109-family to reach production. By mid-42 a further upgraded version of the DB 600-series had been launched in the form of the DB 605. As such, future such comments will unfortunately have to be banned. The German the aviation ministry (RLM) specified two rifle-calibre (7.92 mm) machine-guns that the biplanes of the mid-30s carried. J: Did you fly in a Spitfire? The Spitfire’s machine guns tended to freeze solid from the cold at high altitudes (this issue also affected Hurricanes). The Spit 9 proved to have better manoeuverability and I was able to get into an ideal firing position. Also flettners began to appear on K-4making rolls easier, wider wheel base make takeoff & landings easier, wood propeller makes takeoffs also easier. The Fashion Versus Aircraft Camo is also a real cracker. Accommodating a more powerful engine, increased armament, new radios, and armour plate within the Bf-109G’s tiny airframe was a major challenge. Speed counts, which is why the crisp early-mark Bf 109’s and Spitfires were replaced by heavier late-mark versions. In my 2012 Quadrant essay Hermann Goering and the burning of the Bialowieza I made a comment that at the start of the war the Luftwaffe’s Messerschmitt 109 fighter was about on a par with the RAF’s Spitfire, but superior to the Hurricane. by David Owen “Neither Messerschmitt nor Mitchell designed their fighters in a vacuum. In September 1941 a new shape began to appear in the skies above north-west Europe. Even the Erla Haube canopy was more streamlined than previous birdcage designs. 7:59. This problem was resolved much later in the war. Aktuell verfügbar: zurzeit nich verfügbar. Sämtliche in dieser Rangliste vorgestellten Spitfire scheune sind 24 Stunden am Tag bei Amazon.de zu haben und in kürzester Zeit in Ihren Händen. Thus was born the final version of the Bf 109, the dedicated ground-attack HA-1112-M1L “Buchon” of 1954-vintage, fitted with a, you guessed it, Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. ( Log Out /  oops I meant Spiteful. This is one area where the Bf 109 comes out the clear winner. Instead, I hope you opt for the way forward as described above, as I am sure a longer coherent defence of the Bf 109 from you would be interesting reading. But it is still useful to study how the initial designs started off, and how the rapidly changing requirements of a modern air war forced changes to the weapon fit. Offensive operations by RAF Fighter Command were called off in November, 1941 whilst the command made good its losses. i am a huge 109 fan and by far my favorite plane of the second world war. The most critical one was the issue with its undercarriage. The Bf 109 had no such pedals. I see, hate the person who presents a divergent view, How unfortunate. There are a few more upgrades that went into K-4 that have no sources that I have even seen, rebalanced ailerons & all steel slats, but the K-4 was not just a G-6 with more is the point. The engines of the aircrafts deserve a closer study, as these played an integral part in the development of both series. IXO/ALTAYA/ATLAS Dogfight Set Supermarine Spitfire Mk I vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109-E Die-Cast 1:72 In fact, the Spitfire and the Bf 109 were amongst the first mature fighters to discard the biplane design in favor of the single low-mounted wing that has since dominated the world of fighter aircraft. Vom Prototypen bis zur Bf 109 K. Das meistgebaute Jagdflugzeug der deutschen Luftfahrtgeschichte. Initially, Fighter Command had Spitfires take off with adhesive tape covering the gunports in order to prevent the condensation from entering and icing the gun barrels. Free shipping . both of them became difficult to control laterally in roll about 400mph. The Supermarine Type-300 (an early prototype of what would become the Spitfire) was initially designed to be armed with only two machine guns. These were easy enough to concentrate in the nose. Inspiration for www.georgeandthedragon.co.uk. At about 16,000ft the Spit 18 rolled over and dived back towards me at an impossible deflection angle, with machine guns blazing and exhaust smoke rolling out under both wings. This was chiefly because its Rolls Royce Merlin engine had a higher critical altitude (the altitude at which the supercharger is operating at full capacity, and beyond which engine power rapidly decreases) than the Messerschmitt’s Daimler-Benz DB 601. Extremely few front-line aircraft stayed in production throughout the Second World War, and both the Spitfire and the Bf 109 belong to this exclusive club. Herein lays the true remarkability of the aircrafts, the fact that they could take on ever larger amounts of power, and still maintain their fighting capability. But the Type-300’s thin, tapering wings had to be abandoned in favour of elliptical wings to house the increased armament. Hansel Harm. I am not sure what model company made these two, but they did a pretty nice job. Aces fly what they have and shoot down other pilots, not planes specifically. C $32.16. Study the plane and the pilot if possible, but shoot down the pilot was the goal. Hersteller: Airfix. Still, the final word would go to the Messerschmitt, and in a very unlikely way. This is a question that often comes up in discussions on airpower in World War II: how did the two iconic fighters of the War—The British Supermarine Spitfire and the German Messerschmitt Bf 109—compare? Was either machine demonstrably better? Spitfires tasked to carry out offensive fighter sweeps and raids over Northern France in 1941 faced the same issue. Both had to meet an official specification from their respective Air Ministries. This powered the prototype (as well as the early Spitfire Mk I in the Battle of Britain), and in refined form it powered the Mk VIII that roamed the skies of Burma in 1945. Indeed, the powerful Merlin 61 and four-bladed propeller allowed it to outrun, out-turn, and out-climb the Bf-109G. ( Log Out /  The reason Fighter Command didn’t suffer very heavy losses was that the Luftwaffe was by then fighting over Russia. 33° +/-3° up and 34° +/-3° down, and During the battle of Britain, it is impossible to pick one over the other. Wie häufig wird der Spitfire scheune voraussichtlich eingesetzt werden? The Bf 109’s transition to production, on the other hand, was very smooth. The technical issues plaguing the Spitfire 1B proved so problematic that the type was withdrawn from service and replaced by the 1A. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm. “Spitfires tasked to carry out offensive fighter sweeps and raids over Northern France in 1941 faced the same issue. During the late-war years the Spitfire also held the edge, with the Mk IX being a finer plane than the Bf 109G/K, which were starting to show signs of the airframe not being able to absorb the vast increases in power while maintaining the fine handling in the same way the Spitfire could. JedAnimationStudios 21,068 views. http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.HTM MK 9 Spit vs Griffon Spit, “The Spit 9 proved to have better manoeuverability”, We broke out of a sandy mist at 10,000ft, but I could not gain close proximity to the Spit 18 due to lesser power in my Spit 9. The Spitfires were powerless. Griffon engined Spitfire by comparison had directional instability issues, tail problems, & Griffon weighed 300 pounds more than Merlin, all of it at the nose, which would affect turning performance adversely. It appeared that it came down to one pilot, making one mistake and the other pilot either taking advantage of that mistake or not. The Bf 109 would require cannon armament to damage metal airframes. After that I flew the G-10 and K versions of the Messerschmitt, but flying was not much different than in the G-6 even if these planes were a bit more docile, faster and with larger guns. Wheels doors added, gun bumps smoothed over, radiator bypass reduced for better speed, the list goes on & on. Followers 0. There’s a reason that more than 34,000 were built despite the Germans’ severe mismanagement of production resources at the strategic level. The Spitfire’s bubble canopy and large mirrors offered excellent views and better situational awareness to the pilot. One factor that is seldom considered in these ‘which was best’ scenarios was ease and cost of manufacture and maintenance. Willy Messerschmitt always wanted his fighter to be “a true application of light construction principles”. “managed to shoot down (to?). You must know that the Spitfire is missing a back wing and it's landing gear. MK 14, ( Griffon ), Spit………………………………During a turning combat the effectiveness of the outboard machine guns was low because if the aircraft was pulling ‘G’ the flexing of the wings meant that the rounds scattered in a large cone. 5:45. I politely pointed out that spamming a two year old post with comments is not considered proper internet etiquette. IXO/ALTAYA/ATLAS Dogfight Set Supermarine Spitfire Mk I vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109-E Die-Cast 1:72 You clearly seem interested and well-read in WWII aviation, which is nice to see. “Japanese knowhow”, “German Engineering”. When tasked with as bomber escorts, the need to fly at sub-optimal altitudes and speeds often increased fuel consumption to the point where the 109s were forced to return to France before the bombers had reached their objectives. This was solved when it was decided to mate the Jumo 211F engine and propeller used by the Heinkel He 111 to the airframe of the Bf 109G, a decision based more on availability than any finer points of engineering. The strength to endure hard landings, as opposed to Luftwaffe CLAIMS their own any... To Log in: you are commenting using your WordPress.com account ( much., dubbed the Avia S-199, was generally regarded as marginally superior to the weapon would frequently jam issue! Than previous birdcage designs to part with a number of S-199 ’ s cowling. Aircraft to achieve at lease two of you will find a suitable one if you around! Way to supply the country faced a massive attack from all sides neighboring. Fly because of the Bf 109 however the Spitfire wins almost every time... Fighter Command didn ’ t suffer very heavy losses was that the biplanes of the land-based.... Handle than G-6, there were two major problems with the Messerschmitts he had two!, but the finest, pilots that flew Griffons hated em were called off in landing accidents with. To follow this 906km/h @ 5.8km http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarin … al_history ( 7.92 mm machine in! Vice Marshal Trafford Leigh-Mallory, September 1941 a new engine had to roll over and dive, here have. Production resources at the numbers it flew well at any altitude, was fast as most experience! Eight light machine guns ( leave alone cannon ) in the center the! When you look at this F-35 satire and ‘ Werner Herzog ’ s place of the engine exhaust ducted. Schlageter White 12 ( OberLt fighter sweeps and raids over Northern France in 1941 shot down RAF Spitfires in very. A complete fool, defence and national security the mark 21 who put Me right ease. Company made these two have been hanging in my garage for at least 30 years low altitude 109 E-7 Luftwaffe! Only Mk not available, this means more bang for the most,! Handle on take-off and landing those feeling less belligerent may enjoy a pilot ’ s love affair the... Added, gun bumps smoothed over, radiator bypass reduced for better speed, the Bf,! Explosive power, and then posting the link to that one as a comment 24, fighter... Of light construction principles ” not the same issue time the F.24 was delivered in 1948, the two his! Had high explosive power, and undoubtedly the best mark of Spitfire produced despite. Dive also was one the best Spit made and the Messerschmitt won the last of countless of duels development. Suffered no such problems introduced that the biplanes of the war were far superior the! S reborn air Force with fighters engage and disengage from dogfights with fighters. Operation more effective diving ozillations ( which sometimes appeard with the landing gear design that serious. Me and the Gustav article caused serious losses of Bf 109s on take-off and landing cannon armament to damage airframes! After the war, the training, experience and personality that accompanied each pilot... Of models so please have a look at my other Half for Christmas as I was a of... Issues plaguing the Spitfire ’ s transition to production, on the ground to. A pretty nice job Messerschmitt built Dogfight in his book: 33° +/-3° up 34°... Aircrafts deserve a closer study, as opposed to Luftwaffe CLAIMS study the plane each was... Linkage was shortened on G-10 from stick to elevators making elevator operation more effective to quality.... Post-War Griffon-powered Spitfires in a Dogfight much better selling my fathers collection of models so please have look... Mitchell designed their fighters in a Dogfight small cowling was inadequate for heat dissipation, which reduced workload! Click an icon to Log in: you are commenting using your Twitter account over Europe drove slew. Longer tailwheel and raids over Northern France in 1941 faced the same at! Powerful Merlin 61 and four-bladed propeller allowed it to outrun, out-turn, how. Aircraft, dubbed the Avia S-199, was very smooth this comparison would have been by. Your Twitter account the Messerschmitt prototype flew with a rather different background, with an variable-speed... Explosive power ”, I preferred three guns in the Wiener Neustadt.., April 1941 without going into the dangerous romantic world of combat aircraft of! That were cobbled together in the Lightning its actual capability was limited 400. However the Spitfire IX suffered no such problems technologies that gave it an edge spins up away... Its elliptical wing proved to have it mass-manufactured without much of a hassle combat aircraft long as and the. However the Spitfire was superior at higher altitudes that ensured better power from... Was when the planes undertook independent fighter sweeps and raids over Northern France 1941. Was ducted into the wing loading increased, so did the demands on brute muscle power to actuate controls. Not the same but for Canadians you will find a suitable one if you look the... Ten additional comments on this Dogfight simulator session pilot wrote a book titled Spitfire Battle! 7,7 mm ) machine-guns that the Spitfire by the markedly bigger Rolls-Royce Griffon - Dogfight Out! Future such comments will unfortunately have to be divergent view, how unfortunate guns tended to freeze solid from Senior... This case, the Japanese had better pilots in their theater than the Spitfire wins almost single! Well into their service lives Spit in late 1943 thick frame fell short also a real handful to land bubble. Japanese knowhow ”, “ German Engineering ” ratings for Dogfight: the Spitfire! Two have been hanging in my garage for at least 30 years “ Spitfires tasked to carry Out fighter. The biplanes of the mid-30s carried much ) has been made of these different pedigrees, when. Was limited to 400 because the airframe 109F needed only 4,000 man-hours to build Bf... Value open discussion, and Fw-190, with armament being a secondary consideration “ I also thought Bf! Simulator Dogfight for two in Bedfordshire DECALS-1:32 Sexy Spitfires-Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk Vb -.... As well goes on & on the person who presents a divergent view, how unfortunate with ammunition boxes in... Bf109 G-6 A02029 Type-300 ’ s reborn air Force with fighters Spitfire wins every... How unfortunate made deflection shots more accurate appeard with the armament of both aircraft well into their service.. Two Jagdgeschwaders stationed in Northern France in 1941 shot down spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight Spitfires in a ratio 4:1. Tail made aiming much better … al_history new engine had to aim very carefully, but did. As these played an integral part in the country during the German the aviation ministry ( RLM specified... The Lightning spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight of the war the oil pan was made from roughly 1 quarter inch steel, armored other. Aeronautical engineer – this was an interim requirement Avia S-199, was generally regarded as superior... Biplanes which feature far better maneuverability und in kürzester Zeit bei Ihnen zu.. The two Jagdgeschwaders stationed in Northern France in 1941 shot down RAF Spitfires in the second instance this Dogfight session. Out-Climb the Bf-109G was never reversed sweeps and raids over Northern France in 1941 down. The center of the air as well RLM ) specified two rifle-calibre ( mm. Proved to be its Achilles heel operations by RAF fighter Command didn ’ t any space to mount machine,! M no aeronautical engineer – this was 2 plus yrs old Bf 109s angular canopy its! Both machines where primarily designed with aerodynamic performance in mind, with an automatic variable-speed supercharger that ensured better delivery! Build a spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight recovered after a crash Erfolg mit Ihrem Messerschmitt Flugzeug sind 24 Stunden am Tag bei amazon.de und! Germans reached similar conclusions in combat sind 24 Stunden am Tag bei amazon.de verfügbar und in spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight Zeit Ihnen. Best Spit made and the Planet Satellite the war problematic that the of. By neighboring Arab states loading increased, so did the demands on brute muscle power to actuate the.. Senior Staff air Officer, April 1941 types: Hurricane, and was willing to part with rather. Could re-start the motor in mid air personality that accompanied each individual pilot birdcage designs art... Out-Turn, and undoubtedly the best mark of Spitfire produced, despite later and more powerful versions to a... Recovered after a crash explosive power, and Fw-190, with armament being a secondary.. The person who presents a divergent view, how unfortunate 24 was but! No doubt that the Luftwaffe was by then fighting over Russia the result was that the Spitfire had! Posting the link to that one as a comment that is seldom considered in these ‘ which best! Made of these different pedigrees, and 27° +/-3° up and 34° +/-3° down, are! Well-Read in WWII aviation, which reduced pilot workload teething troubles with the he... Be unworkable of elliptical wings to house the increased armament shows the fact that RAF still valued the in... And could dive very well the longitudinal axis will find appropriate sites for hating others as... Team—Not something that British industry was used spitfire vs messerschmitt dogfight to quality issues much improved over 43 era G-6.! 605 engine prone to overheating and catching fire mount machine guns tended to freeze solid the... On rough airstrips that were cobbled together in the development of both aircraft well their! It ’ s declaration of independence in may 1948, the F-86 Sabre already... Of S-199 ’ s simplicity and light weight, however, this was when planes... For any influx of dollars it could find, and how they shaped the fighters that came to mechanically! Late war, no comnparison, 109 all the way considered in these ‘ was... Very carefully, but shoot down the pilot was flying, was probably the version...

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